Email BCC sorting

[WalterRBasic-dJA3+ZTVu/xWk0Htik3J/ (Walter Jeffries)]

I am working on weaning us from our fifteen years of using UUCP email
and switching to SMTP/POP3. I have setup a test domain mydomain.com
which points to the POP3 mailbox incoming-1M9dCrc/***@public.gmane.org so that incoming
mail for that domain comes to that POP3 address which my software can
then pickup and redistribute between our machines on our local area
network. I have the system sending mail and that works fine. I can
pickup mail. My problem is incoming mail not having any indication
for BCC envelopes. This means that I can sort TO and CC messages but
not BCC. With UUCP there is a control file I can reference but not
with POP3 mail. (In fact, I am finding an amazing lack of following
the RFC protocols for enveloping by senders when I examine messages.)

For example, if a message comes in:

Received: from smx0.ISP.net (smx0.ISP.net [000.198.87.175])
by mailhub0.ISP.net (0.0.6/0.0.6) with ESMTP id
i0K4Ys201694 for <incoming-***@public.gmane.org>;
Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:34:54 -0500 (EST)
To: Holly-3Q2Tfjf0mexWk0Htik3J/***@public.gmane.org
CC: Mark-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Let's have lunch

Then I know what to do. This was received by incoming-***@public.gmane.org
which is a feed for mydomain.com. I should deliver it to @mydomain.com
which is a valid domain within our local area network that comes into
this incoming POP3 and Holly is a valid userID on our end. I ignore
the CC since it is not one of our internal domains and I don't do
relaying to outside domains to prevent relay attacks.

However if a message comes in as: (different TO - not an internal domain)

Received: from smx0.ISP.net (smx0.ISP.net [000.198.87.175])
by mailhub0.ISP.net (0.0.6/0.0.6) with ESMTP id
i0K4Ys201694 for <incoming-***@public.gmane.org>;
Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:34:54 -0500 (EST)
To: Jack-q3WCwn/***@public.gmane.org
CC: Mark-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Let's have lunch

In this case there is no valid TO or CC address for our domain mydomain.com
so I don't know where to deliver it. The immediate assumption is that
it is a BCC but it lacks the envelope information and has no control
file like UUCP. So, the big question is: how does one go about
properly delivering this message? Where do you find the BCC info?
I have sent test messages using a variety of email programs and
there is never any BBC envelope or control data in the full headers
like there is in the control files of the BCCs for UUCP messages.

Can anyone give me any help on how to handle this? Can you point out
out where in the RFC's to find this information? I have looked but
not found it yet.


Holly's Pencil Portraits: http://hollygraphicart.com/
Custom Transfers Shirts & more: http://bltserve.com/
Laser Printer Iron-on Heat Transfer Toners: http://bltoner.com/

-------------------------------------------------------------
Please note that we do not always receive email immediately.
Due to cold induced slow downs in the ether our email is late
by as much as 3* days so please be patient about responses.
An alternative explination is that there is too much spam...
Naa... couldn't be it.

*current estimate, subject to temperature changes... :)

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[Will Leshner]

Post by WalterRBasic-dJA3+ZTVu/xWk0Htik3J/ (Walter Jeffries)
I am working on weaning us from our fifteen years of using UUCP email
and switching to SMTP/POP3. I have setup a test domain mydomain.com
mail for that domain comes to that POP3 address which my software can
then pickup and redistribute between our machines on our local area
network. I have the system sending mail and that works fine. I can
pickup mail. My problem is incoming mail not having any indication
for BCC envelopes. This means that I can sort TO and CC messages but
not BCC. With UUCP there is a control file I can reference but not
with POP3 mail. (In fact, I am finding an amazing lack of following
the RFC protocols for enveloping by senders when I examine messages.)

I wouldn't think you would ever see a BCC header in a delivered
message, if that is what you are looking for.


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[Christer Olsson]

Post by WalterRBasic-dJA3+ZTVu/xWk0Htik3J/ (Walter Jeffries)
Can anyone give me any help on how to handle this? Can you point out
out where in the RFC's to find this information? I have looked but
not found it yet.

Your ISPs mailserver should add an extra header with the original intended reciever of the mail. A common header to add is "X-Real-To:"
--
*************************************************************
Christer Olsson PO Box 9160 Phone [phone]
Ljusa Idéer AB SE-200 39 Malmoe Fax [phone]
Kantyxegatan 5 Sweden http://www.ljusaideer.se

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[WalterRBasic-dJA3+ZTVu/xWk0Htik3J/ (Walter Jeffries)]

Post by Will Leshner

Post by WalterRBasic-dJA3+ZTVu/xWk0Htik3J/ (Walter Jeffries)
I am working on weaning us from our fifteen years of using UUCP email
and switching to SMTP/POP3. I have setup a test domain mydomain.com
mail for that domain comes to that POP3 address which my software can
then pickup and redistribute between our machines on our local area
network. I have the system sending mail and that works fine. I can
pickup mail. My problem is incoming mail not having any indication
for BCC envelopes.

I wouldn't think you would ever see a BCC header in a delivered
message, if that is what you are looking for.

Actually some systems do stick it in, although they shouldn't put it
in the To: and CC: copies. However it is valid for the BCC:
recipients according to the RFCs. If they all did then this would
solve my problem. The information is there during routing hops though
prior to the message shifting from SMTP to POP3 but it is removed at
what the ISP thinks is the final destination, the POP3 mailbox. The
problem is that is not the final destination.

What I need is to know how to deliver the message that comes into a
POP3 mailbox with no valid TO: or CC:. It has a destination within
our domain because it was mail mapped to that POP3 mailbox via the
domain MX, the question is which user. That information was in the
BCC: field at one point but then the message system seperated it when
it figured out where to send the BCC: copy. With UUCP I still have
the control files to tackle this issue. In some systems they put in
env-bcc: for the BCC: recipients and that is in the RFC standards.
Unfortunately envelope standards were poorly adhered to it seems.

Now, before anyone argues that all the BCC: copies are spam and should
just be ignored realize that has nothing to do with the question.
Fact is they are not all spam. I BCC: sometimes to myself even
from one account to another. It is a useful tool. Most of all,
a judgement of spam or not spam has nothing to do with the question.

Mail that is sent and stays within our local network I can handle
easily since it never leaves our systems and I can preserve the BCC:
until delivery just like the SMTP system does. That is not an issue.

It is looking like I will have to receive as SMTP rather than POP3.
The ISP wants to provide it as POP3 so now I have to go back to deal
with that issue with them. If anyone has any bright ideas though I
would be very interested. This was all so much simpler with UUCP
but sadly that protocal is fading from the net. I need to jump of
that train before it crashes. :P I see the end of the tresles...

Cheers,

-Walter
in Vermont
on a looong cold POTS


Holly's Pencil Portraits: http://hollygraphicart.com/
Custom Transfers Shirts & more: http://bltserve.com/
Laser Printer Iron-on Heat Transfer Toners: http://bltoner.com/

-------------------------------------------------------------
Please note that we do not always receive email immediately.
Due to cold induced slow downs in the ether our email is late
by as much as 3* days so please be patient about responses.
An alternative explination is that there is too much spam...
Naa... couldn't be it.

*current estimate, subject to temperature changes... :)

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[Frank Bitterlich]

Hi Walter,

yes, SMTP is the way to go. In a mail transfer chain, SMTP should be used
for all but the last step of the communication: When the actual receiver is
picking up his or her mail. At that stage, the POP3 server (who usually
received the message by SMTP) knows in which maildrop the message is, so
there doesn't need to be accurate (or even any) receiver information.

In SMTP, you get a clear indication of the receiver by the RCPT TO command,
and there is no need to parse any header information for that. The headers
might even disagree when you receive mail from some "relaxed" SMTP machine.

BTW, some SMTP machines add information about the intended receiver in the

Received: from lists.realsoftware.com ([209.198.132.125] verified) by abc.de
Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:57:46 +0100

But since these fields are not mandatory, I wouldn't build anything that
relies on them.

So as I wrote: Use SMTP for anything but the actual maildrop, where the
user-MTA picks up his mail. POP3 simply wasn't designed for a task like
distributing mail.

Cheers,
Frank+++

Post by Will Leshner

Post by WalterRBasic-dJA3+ZTVu/xWk0Htik3J/ (Walter Jeffries)
I am working on weaning us from our fifteen years of using UUCP email
and switching to SMTP/POP3. I have setup a test domain mydomain.com
mail for that domain comes to that POP3 address which my software can
then pickup and redistribute between our machines on our local area
network. I have the system sending mail and that works fine. I can
pickup mail. My problem is incoming mail not having any indication
for BCC envelopes.

I wouldn't think you would ever see a BCC header in a delivered
message, if that is what you are looking for.

...

It is looking like I will have to receive as SMTP rather than POP3.
The ISP wants to provide it as POP3 so now I have to go back to deal
with that issue with them. If anyone has any bright ideas though I
would be very interested. This was all so much simpler with UUCP
but sadly that protocal is fading from the net. I need to jump of
that train before it crashes. :P I see the end of the tresles...

--
"I feel that there is a world market for as many as five computers"
-- Thomas Watson, IBM corp. - 1943

Günter Schmidt & Co. oHG
Frank Bitterlich eMail: bitterlich-***@public.gmane.org
Schlosserstr. 4 WWW: http://www.gsco.de/gsco
D-60322 Frankfurt Tel.: 069 / 156809-29
GERMANY Fax: 069 / 156809-28



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[Will Leshner]

Post by WalterRBasic-dJA3+ZTVu/xWk0Htik3J/ (Walter Jeffries)
It is looking like I will have to receive as SMTP rather than POP3.

Yes, I really think this is the best approach.


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